21 жніўня 2006

Do Jews belong in Israel?

It is exciting to see Judith of Kesher Talk, who has followed Lenin developments since the glorious CFK days, comment on this humble blog. Welcome, Judith! In response to this post about Jews having to prove they are the same Jews the Bible is talking about, Judith says:

Actually Ivan, they can. DNA testing shows that Jews (of all branches) and Palestinian Arabs can trace their ancestry back to Judea/Israel/Palestine.

Also there's a genetic marker which most people who claim cohain ancestry have, which dates back to that time and place as well. Being a cohain (priest) is hereditary through the male.

The genetic aspect of this is indeed interesting, and I should know more about it. Here is, however, my comment, that I'm reproducing here:

I've heard about the DNA proof. I guess my point is that it doesn't matter. If you need such proof to begin with, there's no way it will be enough. You'll come up with another reason why Jews don't belong in Israel.

The reason I think Jews do belong in Israel is because wherever they go, they are told "Go back where you came from". They are told that in Israel, too, but Israel is the only place where Jews can settle and say "We are not going". They love that land, they care for it, they build a civilized state on it - and to me, that means they belong there.


Blogger Suzanne said...

That still doesnt explain why Israel and not Uganda (heh).

Well.. in short: if muslims were being persecuted and discriminated at in the whole world and they come up with the idea of a place of their own, you would think that place would be Saudi Arabia, no? Because of Mecca and because of Medina... You're not going to let them create an islamic country in Zimbabwe or Chile or so. That just does not make sense.

Though my example falls a little bit short as Jews are a nation and muslims are not.

:) but i hope you got my point.

6:13 PM  
Blogger Ivan Lenin said...

Yes, I get your point, and agree with it.
The reason Jews picked Israel as their country is anything but random, and everybody knows that. All I was saying is that no genetic proof is necessary to justify Israel's existance - at leat in my eyes, and I think in the eyes of most reasonable people.

3:46 AM  
Blogger Judith said...

ditto Suzanne.

Thank you for your kind words Ivan.

I think it is a good idea to keep misinformation from spreading, so whenever I see something innacurate I like to correct it.

I do think this is an important point to get right, because I see these assertions alot in anti-Israel areguments: "Ashkenazic Jews aren't "really" Jews. There is some weird pseudohistory that they were replaced by a mass conversion of the Khazars. But there are 3 refutations for this. 1) the Khazar story is a myth, 2) converts to Judaism are fully Jewish, so even if the khzar story is true, they are all good Jews anyway. 3) all Jews come from originally Jewsh stock from that area, so although there has been intermarriage, the genetic line is clear. Also the route from Israel throuout the diaspora can be traced historically without any difficulty.

Another thing I find interesting is that they claim Jews are racist, but they are the ones being racist by insisting that Jewish conneciton to Israel be based on race, when we never have.

Anyway I find the genetic argument worth making because it is one of the lies told in the attempt to delegitimize Israel as the Jewish nation.

10:44 PM  
Anonymous Joanne said...

My impression is that, over the last couple of centuries, when there was intermarriage, it was the Jew who converted to Christianity or raised his/her children Christian, because that meant social acceptance. It didn't often work the other way. So what intermarriage there was would end up with some Jewish genes in the surrounding population, not that Gentile genes in the Jewish population.

Of course, there still is one mystery: Why do European Jews look...well...European?

11:07 PM  
Anonymous Ананім said...


The Jews of today aren't the hebrews of the Bible. The hebrews of the bible were African slaves of the Egyptians. The Egyptians ot there slaves from the headwaters of the NILE RIVERS. Look at a map!!! - The Hebrews of the Bible were BLACK-AFRICANS. Over the centuries some european adopted the religion/culture of the hebrews and have become ZIONIST and particin Jews but they aren't the Hebrews of the bible, nor are the entitled to the "land of canaan". At the end of the great tribal war of europe (ww2), a place should have been created in Europe for these Jews. palestine should not have been stolen from the palestians and given to to the European Jews. --
What is today I decided to be a buddist would my desendance be enta entitled to tibet in 3000 years? - NO, and neither should palenstine been given to these modern european jews.



6:25 PM  
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Anonymous Ананім said...

On NJWEEDMAN.COM comment above:

Drawing on Eygptian remains show they were NOT black, but caucasian. Ancient drawings don't lie.

9:25 AM  
Anonymous Ананім said...

Not to mention:

1. Jews were living in Israel since back 3000+ years.

2. Arabs mostly moved in AFTER the Jews developed it.

3. It was barely populated backwater of Ottoman empire. The Arabs lived in what's now Jordan.

4. Jews & Arabs - so land was SPLIT. Jews accepted. Arabs got Jordan, but rejected a 2nd Arab state.

5. Arab objections to Israel is SELF-RULE by NON-Arab Muslims. Gets in way of greater regional empire planned. As Kurds, they're having same problem getting self-rule!

Stolen is a PR propaganda term to justify the empiral goals of Arab's that's taken on new self-belief in their own lies.

9:30 AM  
Blogger Jacob said...

Is it the right of a man to seize the land of his grandfather's grandfather? Does our history give us the right to displace the current inhabitants of our ancestral lands?

11:50 PM  
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10:52 PM  
Anonymous Ананім said...

Jews have a history with the land of Israel despite what the Palestinian propagandist say. GOOGLE: (Assyria,Babylon,Biblical, Cush,Egypt and Elam Confirmations)under rapturealert July 3, 2012 for the history proving Jews lived in Israel during ancient times.

11:19 PM  

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